| Let us reason together ...
Canarsie: aarom youve taken the stance that the vast vast majority of people with intelligence have all missed the boat on this book .that somehow they have a block.refuse to see wat is so tatally clear to you.
There are a billion Muslims and over a billion Christians. Most people in those faiths believe that the Bible is the word of God. So actually many people with intelligence have not missed the boat. There is a growing movement of Christian Zionists, Christians who believe that God gave Israel back to the Jews. On what do they base this? The Torah prophecies!
Canarsie: i think the book was right but internet says that its predictions might be circumstance vague and wen they are on thr mark they might have come true cause those affected knew of them
Who is "internet"? That could be anyone. I don't care what "anyone" says, I care about what I can see with my own eyes. The prophecy is not vague. It says who the people are, what the land is, and what will happen. These are just excuses to not deal with the reality that the prophecies are impressive. To me they suggest that whoever wrote them knew the future, or was a genius at projecting events into the future.
At least you finally acknowledge that as you say, "the book was right". Yes, it made a very clear prediction that was extremely unlikely, and it came true. Any unbiased person should simply admit that that is impressive. We do not find anything of this clarity and accuracy anywhere else.
Canarsie: they might have come true cause those affected knew of them
Let's really think this one through. Even if the Jews of 3,500 years ago knew about these prophecies, how could they ensure that 3,500 years later they would be fulfilled? How could they know that the Jews would even exist so much later? Can you tell me now with any assurance whether the United States will still exist 3,500 years from now? No! So how could someone know that this band of ex-slaves from Egypt would live through the Babylonian exile, the Roman exile, the Pogroms of Europe, the Jihad of Islam, the Holocaust of the Nazis! Seriously, there is absolutely no way they could have known this 3,500 years ago.
That is why people continue to believe in the Bible despite the scoffing of non-believers. Those who scoff do not make convincing arguments against the amazing nature of these prophecies. And that is why you still see the Chanukah candles burning brightly every December and you still see Kosher food in the supermarket. That is also why you have so many Christians supporting Israel. We can only hope the Muslims will come around eventurally.
aarom youve taken the stance that the vast vast majority of people with intelligence have all missed the boat on this book .that somehow they have a block.refuse to see wat is so tatally clear to you.
of course i recall a guy in college who was studying psychology and he concluded that its easier to eliminate or beed out emotions than to cure emotional problems, He went into a period of maybe 2 yrs where he thought mr spock was a great idea even a message from THE TRUTH about how emotions were bad and humans needed to rev up thr evolutionary curve and work to eliminate people with strong emotions jus as wee are losing our pinkies .After 2 yrs he decided to change and help people with emotional problems cause thats the baggage we are stuck with until they evolve away ve it ever so slowly.
i think the book was right but internet says that its predictions might be circumstance vague and wen they are on thr mark they might have come true cause those affected knew of them..i say internet cause the greatest amount od research is in internet.i asked about this book and it says its true its false and heres why..the believers are mostly jews while not all jews and nonbelievers are jews and nonjews both.
i think if something is written clearly about an event that will take place in 100 yrs and everybody knows about it and it happens it lacks validity.if nobody knows about it it lacks clarity its vague.if one guy knows about it and nobody involved knows,and it happens then you got a ppoint but you dance around this point as have so many .I know to make this proof youd need to be that person nad thats impossible so me like many jews nonjews dont believe in predictions
as well, anyone from our future wanting to redirect us might be more brazen in hinting.clearer.
you gotta stop to think that wen you or nayone comes to a point of thinking that the vast majority is wrong missing it,that maybe you need to rethink it all out,
many jews the chosen ones also dont believe it.
it also smacks of jewperiority.jews thinkin they are chosen better gifted leaders..our book is it!!in israel i remmber so many israelis who used this book to keep open the door.
| The Circle Game
You just did it again. You don't respond to my points about the prophecies written in the text.
I guess you don't have an answer so you employ diversionary tactics. That's okay. A lot of people do not want to deal with questions that are hard to answer.
But I believe humanity MUST deal with these things sooner of later. But until then we go round and round and round in the circle game.
ive googled this conversation by topic and our very conversation has taken place before many times before with these same comments in many languages and never iss there a winner..
we will ale=ways be as we are and i guess the talmud doesnt make a difference in this.
| Talking to a wall
They once asked a Jew who was praying in front of the Western Wall if it did any good. He said, "It's like talking to a wall."
The same is true here. You are not responding to my points but just repeating your points. You keep talking about the Bible Code but not responding to the revealed prophecies that are clearly stated in the text.
I asked you how the Jews could have MADE it happen that they got Israel back. You didn't answer.
I asked you how the Western Wall could have stood for 2,000 years while in the hands of Israel's enemies. The Talmud said that wall would stand and all the others are gone! How could the Jews have MADE that happen? Don't you think the Muslims would have wanted to prove the Talmud wrong?
There are many more revealed prophecies that I could mention. I can see now that no matter what I say you will either come up with an answer, however insufficient, to explain it away, or, more likely, you will change the subject and keep talking about the Bible Code, which I agreed was a lot harder to defend.
It seems you are not looking to expand your knowledge, but only to confirm your current beliefs. That is typical of most people.
| time in
i guess the book was written by a futurenaut.a guy whowanted to improve events from the past without shocking people, so he wrote a book in code so it could be disbelieved.100% proof of knowing the future might scare people. i mean he couldnt out einstein foto in a boo k3000 yrs ago and say this guy will discover the equation that leads to total destruction. so he cloaked it in ambiguity double talk too many predictions and we call it RELIGION.
| Time Out
If you need a moment of peace in this hectic world, sit down and feast your ears on this:
| Atheists Behaving Badly
Well, for all of you who are enjoying this debate, you may want to check out my latest series of videos. There are three videos called, "Atheists Behaving Badly or The Problem With Atheists". Here is a link to the first:
| People don't read!
Did I ever once in our discussions say I believe that the prophecies were put there by God? It is so weird to me how people don't listen, or in this case don't read. They have something in their head and they hear what they want to hear even if it is never said. All I have said is that these prophecies and their fulfillment are "unusual", "remarkable", "unique". And all I have been trying to do is to get you to get beyond your fear that there may actually be a God up there, and just look objectively at the facts.
To say that the Jews MADE the return to Israel happen is fantasy. That is a perfect example of believing things on faith. What evidence can you offer to me that the Jews MADE this happen?
(You see, I'm trying to help you think through these things. And I'm glad you are willing to really think about it. Most people are unwilling to even think about this stuff. It's like there is this pang of fear they get, maybe it's the fear that they will go to hell if they question what they were taught as kids, and they just refuse to talk or think about it. Or in the case of atheists maybe it is the fear that there may be evidence that God exists and then they will have to rethink their atheism.)
| i predict a book of predictions
one thing more..even if one believed in this predictivity.it doesnt prove theres a god. could be a time traveler from our future or even an alien form the past who created our world or visited it long ago.
you assume the predictions are scientific but they are not, and you assume that this proves theres a superbeing who is self created.
i dont know whu you cant contemplate that maybe at the end the proof might stand but doesnt conclude the=at theres a god.....
| prove god using science not events that happened
i believe a few probble predictions came true which were obvious OR since the jews knew of the predictions they saw returnto their land coming and THEY made it happen.scientifically you are wrong spiritually you are right but based on scientific proof you are way off.
in the casino i know a girl who hit it 4 times in a row..is she special or lucky. did she knoe what cards were already on the table? yes..
| What would it take
Canarsie wrote: what proof would you require? if he said IM JESUS...would that doit?
if millions believed it would you?
No it would take more than some guy saying, "I'm Jesus". And no matter how many people believed him, I would still want enough proof to make it a logical and rational decision.
For instance, Jesus said he was the Son of God, so to prove he was Jesus he would have to do some things, or know some things, that only God could know. For instance, right now there is a war going on between Israel and Hamas, if someone claimed to be Jesus he should know the outcome beforehand. Actually, if someone claimed to be Jesus then we should see the war end, and all wars end. We should see peace around the world. Then we should see the dead rise from their graves and all the other things that the Bible says will happen when the messiah comes. The fact is, these things didn't happen when Jesus was here the first time, and for that reason Jews did not accept him as the messiah. They couldn't accept him because the Torah warns not to accept anyone as the messiah unless he fulfills the prophecies.
And if Jesus somehow found a way to come back after 2,000 years and he still did not fulfill the Torah prophecies, Jews would still be under the command of God to not believe in him. But the prophecies that God spoke in the Torah have come true!
Look, you may not believe in God, but what I find so weird is that you can't even acknowledge the simple and obvious fact that the Torah made unusual prophecies about the Jews and the land of Israel and they came true. Why can't you admit this? Is it that if you do you will feel that your atheism will be in doubt?
what proof would you require? if he said IM JESUS...would that doit?
if millions believed it would you?
If a xian said its exactly as predicted in a book ...i doubt you would ever believe it..youd even say it was hipnotism or magic or future alien tec anything but believe it..you simply dont want to believe it.you decided not to believe it without yrs of study of it
cause it doesnt jive with your sense..as the torah and god dont jive with mine..
god is not my religion..hes the other religion.my religion has no god
therefore its no reli.gion/its independi.gion
| I'm impressed
If Jesus did return and he could prove that he was who he said he was, I would be very impressed! And I think that you should be very impressed that the Jews were able to return to Israel as prophesied. I think it was the most impressive moment of the century, if not the millennium.
There is another amazing prophecy we could discuss. It says in the Song of Songs that "my love watches me from behind his wall". In the Talmud, 2000 years ago, the rabbis said that this referred to the Western Wall of the Temple and because God watches the Jews from there, that wall will never be destroyed.
Now this is the amazing part: the enemies of the Jews had control of that wall for 2000 years, every other wall of the Temple is gone, but the Western wall remains! Did you ever wonder why all Jews want to go to pray by the Western Wall (formerly called the Wailing Wall)? It is because the fact that that wall is still standing is another great miracles of Judaism!
if jesus did return would you blieve him to be the true son of god or would believe him to be some alien with hitec? or a good magician?
as you would doubt this return i doubt the prophecies.
i believe in neither
g nor the beatles
of course a jew would believe in a good profit
and a cristian in a good return
The main point of prophecy is to demonstrate that the speaker has access to a higher source of information. If the prophecy was hidden, how would anyone be able to prove he is a prophet?
A perfect example is the return of Jesus. Jesus said he would return. He has not returned. So for now the logical belief is that he was not who he said he was. (Of course if he does return then we would have to adjust our view.)
In the Torah, God said the Jews would be evicted and return twice. Up until 1948 there was not a second return, so it would be logical at that point to believe that it was never going to happen. But then when it did happen in 1948, the logical thing to do was to adjust our view and realize that whoever made that prophecy was indeed a prophet (or an amazingly lucky guesser).
Now you can say that because the prophecy was known the Jews made it happen. But let's be honest - do you think it would have happened had their not been a Holocaust? So, then what are you saying? That the Jews made the Holocaust happen so they would get Israel back? Or are you saying that Hitler secretly wanted the Bible prophecies to be fulfilled so he did what he did hoping that it would lead to the return of the Jews to Israel?
You see, even with this knowledge being public, it was still virtually impossible for any human being to MAKE this happen. It really is an amazing thing, and as Jew you should be proud of the Torah.
Italians are proud of their opera, the English are proud of Shakespeare, the Germans are proud of Beethoven, yet there are a lot of Jews who try to deny the greatness of their culture's greatest work. Why?
but to be proven as profecy it must be secret then come true.if any actor in the equation is aware of this clear profecy about return in 70 yrs, it biases the result... so, the profecy must be a secret which is known to one person and it comes true after.not known to all especially the jews..if they (we) know we will return in 4 yrs then we make it happen due to religious belief..i guess im scientific and you are beyond me.. so theres the diff. I require proofe based on scientifics,blind tests not a group cearly knowing its future of return in 70 yrs..
| Let's see if we can straighten this out
Canarsie wrote: i think its misleading wen a person says This book predicts these events in exactitude and THEN u tell us its really in code unnoticable until afterwards.
I don't know if you are doing this on purpose, but you keep ignoring the fact that the prophecies about the exiles and returns are IN THE TEXT! I don't know how I can make it any clearer. This is not a hidden code that can only be discovered after the fact. These are actual sentences in the Torah that have been there in plain sight for thousands of years. Do you understand the difference?
As for the hidden codes, I agree that that is much easier to criticize. I feel that more research has to be done to determine if the Torah's codes are more "statistically relevant" than those of other books. I suppose you could say I threw you a curve ball when I brought up the 9/11 code. It's just that you said if I could show you a prophecy about 9/11 you would believe, so I found a hidden code. But I agree, there is no conclusive proof that that code was not a coincidence.
But the prophecies that are clearly written in Hebrew in the text of the Torah are NOT HIDDEN. They were not found after the fact, but were know BEFORE. So don't confuse the two types of things. One is a hidden code, the other is a prophecy in the actual text. Get it?
Canarsie wrote: and worse is that if its so predictive why hasnt every body adopted it? you cant say the xians are dummies or the aethiests or non precticing israeli jews.
You tell me why everybody has not adopted it! I think you are a perfect example. People who do not want to believe will find a million excuses. Look, you have a good point about the hidden codes. It is hard to prove if they are random or not. But the prophecies written in the text are clear as a bell for any eye to see, yet you are struggling every which way to find some way to not admit that they are remarkable. If you, someone born a Jew, is having such a hard time allowing yourself to see the obvious, imagine how hard it is for people who have been raised since they were little impressionable children to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, or that there is no God!
The main point of my book, Beyond Faith, is to get people to get beyond the "brainwashing" of their childhoods and open their eyes to other ways of thinking. As for me, I did not know about Torah prophecies growing up. I was taught the Bible was just a story. So I actually have moved beyond what I was taught as a child. But most people get stuck in their childhood beliefs and never give them up.
| torah harot isnt that a casino??
i think its misleading wen a person says This book predicts these events in exactitude and THEN u tell us its really in code unnoticable until afterwards.and then u tell us it contains 1000000000 predictions some very probble.like the jews will return or a king will come to the house of africa ...
ans worse is that if its so predictive why hasnt every body adopted it?
you cant say the xians are dummies or the aethiests or non precticing israeli jews.
| Vague Schmague
Yeah, very vague. The Jews will be evicted from Israel for 70 years then they will return. Hmmm ... I wonder who they could be talking about. Could it be the Jews?
My sister used to close her ears with her hands and sing, "Think what you want to think. Think what you want to think." (Of course this is when we were kids in Canarsie!)
| torah predicts
i gotta love a book that predicts 10000000000000000000s of things in vague code and some come true..like a casino, sometimes you hit sometimes you dont.
happy new year 09
the torah predicts in 09 that the jewish people will have a savior. a death of a leader the discovery of a friend and a relief.
lets see if it happens
| Happy New Year
Hey LN, thanks for chiming in! Yes, that is a breathtaking quote. And, indeed, the Jews were gathered from the north and the four corners of the earth back into Israel. Remember when Russia finally let them go. And how about that amazing airlift from Ethiopia?
It is truly fascinating to see how people resist just simply looking at the facts. I think the atheists have many good points, but until they admit the obvious, that Torah prophecies and their fulfillments are truly remarkable, they come off as having "blind faith" in their own set of beliefs.
Anyway, I guess you will bring in the new year before we do on this side of the pond, so enjoy it, and we'll see you there soon!
Von Cello wrote:as it stands, the Torah has stuck out the non-believers and hit a grand slam!
anni maskima - I agree! The more you study, the more proof you're bound to find. Here's one of my favourite texts: Jeremiah 16:14-16.
14 "Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when it shall no longer be said, 'As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt,' 15 but 'As the LORD lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where he had driven them.' For I will bring them back to their own land that I gave to their fathers.
Meanwhile, my sincere wish all of you and yours here for a Happy New Year in good health!
| Here's the Final Score for 2008
Well Canarsie, we won't be around in a few thousand years, but we are around now and so far here's the score:
Torah predicted mass eviction of Jews: Done
Torah predicted return (Jeremiah gave it 70 years): Done
Torah predicted 2nd exile: Done
Torah predicted Jews scattered to the four corners of the earth: Done
Torah predicted anti-Semitism but the Jews will remain a people: Done
Torah predicted 2nd return: Done (1948)
You can wait a thousand years to see if there will be a third eviction and return, but as it stands, the score is Torah - 6, Non-Believers 0!
Happy New Year!
| The fun begins!
Hey, why don't you make a video response?!
Just make a webcam recording of ten minutes or less.
Then go here:
Upload it, and within minutes you too can be on your way to You Tube stardom!
If we carried on our conversation through videos at You Tube, hundreds or maybe thousands of people would see it. And as you can see from my video, we are already getting a lot of comments.