| jesus show
i think a show about his life would be great. a kid with no dad whose mom gets pregnant mysteriously.
hed grow up with her and have friends and goof around like all kids. Viewers would expect filosofical ideas from his mouth but be surprised that he was a a teen a real scandal.
maybe hed look at asses tits try smoking.lie curse .Hed go to shul as he was a heb
then 1 day hed start thinking about life existance and get jesuslike
hed lose friends cause hed get wierd. Girls would admire him
his pals might think he went religious like barry letterman did
finally hed have a following like a seinfeld.
then the guards would come from the rulers ,and take him.
the show would show no miracles or genius thinking..just a kid a tenn a youngman a realguy who sees a new idea..like bill gates he sees a window a better way and talks it up. the google boys or the romans go after him and the jew would be there too..maybe jesuss cousin or kid friend from childhood.
that 0 show
what a concept
what a soapopera
moses hangin at the wall!!
| jesus was je.rry sus.sman abbreviated
the world might never know cause theres no proof even of who killed lou grants wife. She died in an accident and mary noe lou never knew who did it. Of course you say im talkin about fiction and your talkin about reality.???
Id love a tv show called .THat 10 show.
about young jesus hangin with his friends as a teen.....
| The Mind of an Atheist
Okay, let's say for argument's sake that God does not exist. There are still many other issues to discuss. For instance, what is YOUR take on the portrayal of the Jews in Matthew...i.e. spitting on Jesus, yellling "Crucify him", etc. Also, do you believe the Roman governor would be the one trying to protect him? And what about the Jews asking that the blood of Jesus be on them and their children? What do you, as an atheist, make of this?
Inquiring minds want to know.
| like flies
the count is 4
4 canarsie friends are now dead
just got the call that a pal from canarsie 3 yrs older than me died of a heart attk
that makes 4
aids cancer and 2 hrt attks
what are you doing to be fit?
for a coffin?
or a suit to attend your grankids graduation from kindergarten?
i kno u don have kids but do u think about this ever?
jus yesterday i attended my bubbies funeral. i was 13 and my mom 48
Now im 51..and my kids 11..
weve just blinked and ended up in the twilight years.
submitted for your approval..
here i read your thread everyday.
I would like to get visual and see a pic of u at the pc board
As an aethiest Im the onle one here who has proof of my philosophy..empirical proof .You ask what peoof do i have to prove god doesnt exist..
I ask you wheres your proof that fred flintsone doesnt exist?
the proof is not my burden..
| God Loves America!
| Jump On That Train
Maybe that's why I wrote songs about trains. That is the old "Canarsie Line" train that we had to take to get to "the city". But that looks like a new train...something I never saw back in the day.
So Steve, you seem awfully quiet on these religious topics. You used to be so outspoken. You have the right to remain silent...but I wonder what you think from your atheist perspective.
By the way, I once saw a cartoon that said:
"God is dead" - Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead" - God
| welcome back mr m
At the risk of offending anyone...or boring people to death...
I am still listening to the Bach St. Matthew Passion. (After all it is long!) There are indeed great moments of heavenly music. The singers are singing in German, but I just heard the word "Israel", so I guess the word Israel is the same in German as it is in English and other languages. Hearing that word made me realize that I must be up to the part in the story where the Jews get portrayed as blood thirsty, crazed, vengence seekers who spit on God. And it strikes me as I hear this in GERMAN that even Bach's music may have added to the climate of anti-Semitism that led to the Holocaust.
Now, this MUST be controversial...to say that the great and wonderful J.S. Bach had anything to do with the Holocaust! But, of course, I do not mean that he had anything directly to do with it. But he, like hundreds or thousands of other artists of all types passed on this story vilifying the Jews, and when you add that all up it had to have had a bad effect.
Just imagine Germans hearing about how the Jews spit on God, and screamed "Crucify him, crucify him!" How even the Roman governor pitied him...but not the Jews! Then you hear this heavenly music that makes you want to melt and cry, and you feel such anger at those Jews. How could they be so evil?!
Yet, this is coming to my ears in the language of the culture that tried to commit genocide on the Jews. The culture that called the Jews vermin, and rounded them up like cattle and packed them into freight trains to concentration camps. There they experimented on them as if they were animals. They laughed as they killed children in front of parents and parents in front of children. They made life a living hell on earth for the Jews. But then, why not? Look what they did to Jesus!!
Oh boy. Maybe I am overreacting. But I am printing these thoughts more for posterity than anything else. The peoples of the world who spread these stories about the Jews must understand the pain that they cause Jews. And they must also understand the consequences of passing down year after year, generation after generation, a type of hatred, the scapegoating of a small group of people. Due to these stories, the Jews go from being a holy people of God to the killers of God. They go from the enlightened people who brought the world Isaiah and his call that the nations shall "beat their swords into plowshares", into a mob that spits on God. (Sorry, that spitting image just won't leave my head.)
Knowing that this Easter, as in every Easter for 2,000 years, this story is once again being told to a new generation gives me a great pain in the pit of my heart. How often does the non-Jewish world hear from a Jew how so many of us feel. I never brought this up in public before because I did not want to offend any Christians, even though I was offended by some of their stories. But since LN brought up his perception that the Matthew Passion had elements of anti-Semitism, it opened the door. And now that I am listening to the piece after many, many years, I guess all of these feelings are coming out. (I purposely avoided listening to it because of the reaction I had to it decades ago.)
I don't have bad feelings about Christians in general. And I know that Christianity has a good side. But anyone who belongs to a tiny minority group that is vilifyied in the writings of a gigantic majority group, has to feel a certain level of sorrow and anger during times of the year when they know this gigantic majority if vilifying them once more all around the world!
Will this problem ever be solved? I hope so. That is part of what I address in my book. But it will probably take several more generations as little by little people wake up to the negative sides of their religions, and people are able and willing to discuss these millennia-long controversies that seem to go on and on without end.
Well, I'm sure I said enough for one day.
Peace on earth. Goodwill to men...
| The Art of Religion
Hey, good luck on the new station! Hope it works out.
My wife and I, and our 7 month old puppy, are looking to maybe do a little trip up north this summer. We stayed once in a place in New Hampshire called The Horse and Hound. Its a B&B that allows, actually encourages, dogs. And it's near the White Mountains. So maybe we can do a couple of days there and then swing into Vermont. Maybe do a radio interview?
So much is going on this year it is really unbelievable. I just got great news, speaking about religion. I musician friend of mine, who is also a fine artist, has agreed to offer me images for my book. He is an abstract painter who often delves into biblical themes. You can view his site here:
| God must be pissed! Good thing he's up in the clouds there....
In responce to "God Hates the World":
Well, can you blame the guy? (man/woman/thing/being/deity/entity...whatever God is)?
What with the recession, rising mortage rates, war continuing to rage with American casualties increasing in Iraq and, and the melding of religion and politics on the presidential campaign trail, God must hate America especially, if not the rest of the World. I know I personally dislike my own nation right now...I won't go far as saying i hate it, but I truely dislike it. My mom has admitted to me and our friends that she has never felt like saying bad things about a President untill Bush came to power and I happen to agree with her. Of course I don't have the presidential frame of refference she has. I was born in Reagan's last years, was too young to follow and or comprehend Bush the First's efforts, and grew up through the Clinton years - I liked Pres. Clinton alot, I felt he had a real sense of what was good for America and of course he gave America a good repour with the rest of the world. The economy in the Clinton Administration was good, but of course i was not old enough to understand what a good economy entailed. But now, I fear Bush II will go down in the history books as America's most controversial, if not worst, president. Perhaps he'll be labeled as our "most monarchical", or "most God-fearing" president. I don't think god hates Bush, nor the World or America, but jeez, there's a heck of alot to dislike about the world right now. In these hectic times, I take solace in religion (got a big, heaping help of it this weekend), food, music, theater, writing the occasional poem, family, friends, my job, a new bible study group I've joined, and taking time out for a good nap. Hmmmm...speaking of sleeping....
Oh, before I go to bed...On Tuesday I've got a training at a new radio station that was established in Downtown Burlington last September. It's called "The Radiator 105.9-FM WOMM". I submitted an application for a show, as a continuation of the Format I broadcast on WWPV 88.7-FM. Wish me luck, won't you? You can find out more about the station at their website below:
Hope you have a good radiator to keep you warm over there in Holland, LN. It's nice to be good an' warm while you sleep.
So if NL is the Netherlands, is that why you are LN?
And why don't they call it Holland?
| Cold in NL!
Believe it or not, we only had a little snow during 2 days in December, and just the last hours it started snowing lightly (only an inch), so right now it looks like a peaceful White Christmas outside. But it's 0 C, so the white stuff won't last, and this is 10 degrees too cold for this time of year here.
| Good Christians
| Visual Snow
When you think about it we have quite a cast of characters. By Edward there is still snow on the ground. Out is Spain by Steve it is virtually summer. Out in SF by Neal it is probably spring. I don't know what the weather is in the Netherlands. Over here in New York we are just coming out of winter. I took a nice hike today. It was just a bit nippy, but there is no snow on the ground, yet the leaves are not out yet. It is a great time for hiking as you still get great views between the branches of the trees, and you don't yet have the bugs.
Holiday times are always times of friction because various religions exist in competition with each other. Sometimes I wonder what an Egyptian must feel like when he hears the Passover story and how Egypt was so rebellious against God, and how it was so humiliated by Him. And what about Pagans? They must really hate all the talk about "heathens" and "infidels". Hopefully one day the whole world will be able to evaluate the various religions with objectivity and knowledge. Then, maybe we can finally settle these multi-generational arguments.
That is the underlying purpose of my book, "Beyond Faith". The idea being that humanity must move beyond" believing" things, and start applying reason to everything. Will that make the world a perfect place? Probably not. But I think it would make it a better place. The reason being that no religion has a faith that is not harmful to people of other religions. Jews probably hurt Christians when they say that Jesus was just a man. Christians hurt Jews when they spread stories that demonize the great Jewish sages (Pharises). Muslims hurt Jews and Christians when they talk about Jihad and killing all the Infidels. Buddhists...maybe they are cool in that they just meditate, but I know Buddhists who have tried to pull me away from Judaism and Jewish beliefs about God. So it seems that all of these religions fight with each other.
This leads some people to want to abandon the whole thing. I think Steve is in this camp. He is Jewish, married a Christian, but he's an atheist. He's also funny looking! Ha!! Just kidding!
| lets get visual
| Happy Easter/Passover!
Peace be with you and Shalom to Aaron, LN Cello, canarsie, Neal and all the rest. I hope this Easter/Passover season will be a holy one for you.
I am enjoying a nice calm day at home and I'm going to have a pretty low-key week now that the Irish Fest, and Easter Holy Week is over. Free time is something you get once in a while, (and thank God) but you never know what to do with it once it comes. I thank God for the gift of his son, the "paschal sacrifice" as Catholics call him, but I just wish all the snow could dissapear from the ground so I could take a devotional bike ride.
| Passionate Matthew
I have been thinking about the St. Matthew Passion since LN brought it up. It reminded me that I actually took a Catholic girl on a date to see the Bach version performed by the Boston Symphony when I was a student at Boston Conservatory (for one year). She was a pretty blond, probably of German or Polish background. Her name, I think, was Martha and she played classical guitar.
I remember it now like it was yesterday. We sat through the several hours that this piece takes. We listened to the amazing music, reading a translation of the words from the program as the music progressed. I remember getting feelings of anger and sorrow as I read words about the Jews that I knew were not true.
I am listening to the Passion right now. Have been on and off throughout the day. Here are some of the words:
"Then the high priest rent his clothes saying: 'He hath spoken blasphemy'. They (the crowd) said: 'He is guilty of death! The did they spit in his face, and buffeted him, and others smote him..."
Come on, give me a break! The Jews were the most literate people in the ancient world. The Torah and the Talmud are full of sayings such as, "You shall not hate they brother in thy heart", and "Justice, justice shall you follow". It is highly offensive to see this false portrayal of the Jews. Clearly, in my opinion, this kind of politically motivated writing came from the Romans who edited the New Testament. It is the beginnings of systemic anti-Semitism...make the Jews look like a crazed, violent group of killers, and then justify hatred of them.
This is then bourne out by the story of the Roman governor sticking up for poor Jesus, while the crowd yells, "Crucify him!" So, you see, the Romans are actually the good guys. Yeah, right. And the Jews are the bloodthirsty God killers. Then in an unbelievably brazen attack against the Jews, Matthew has the crowd say to Pilate, "His blood be upon us, and on our children"!!!!!!!!!!!
Can you imagine that the Jews actually said that! Why on earth would they want the blood of anyone on them. And on their children? How sick is that? Especially since in the Torah God says, "The sins of the father should not be on the son, or the sins of the son on the father. Everyone will be punished for his own sins." This is a transparent attempt by the Roman editors of the New Testament to justify the hatred, and murder of Jews. "After all THE JEWS said that the blood of Jesus SHOULD be on them and their children, so we can kill them and their children throughout the generations!" Uggggghhhhhh!
Anyway...getting back to my cute, blond Catholic girl...I was sitting next to her in my own private hell, getting angrier and angrier as the text of this piece by Bach is justifying the centuries of riots, pogroms, expulsions, and holocausts against my people. And I look over at her and see an angelic look in her eyes. I can see she is coming under the spell of the music and words.
Finally we get to the end of the piece and the chorus is singing about Jesus in his grave, saying, "We sit ourselves down in tears and call to thee in the grave, Sweet repose, rest sweetly". I am thinking, "Thank God this is almost over. Maybe I can take her out for a drink and get her back to my dorm room and salvage the night". But then I look over to see tears in her eyes and I realize that see is totally buying this Passion. I realize that she is indeed a believing Catholic, and not only does she believe that Jesus died for her sins, she also believes the horrible things that Matthew said about the Jews. Suddenly I realize that our days as a couple are numbered. Will she ever understand how terrible it feels to a Jew to hear those twisted stories? Will I ever be able to pray to a "God" who has a book that says such nasty things about my ancestors?
On the way home she started talking about her faith in Jesus and how moved she was. Then she wondered why I didn't cry. There it was, like a lead balloon. I tried to be as tactful as possible saying that I thought it was a good story but I don't really believe in it. I could see she was amazed that after that moving experience I could walk away a non-believer. I don't think we ever went out again.
This is the kind of deep stuff that goes on between people that most people never talk about. I don't think I ever talked about this before. Certainly I never wrote about it before. But this is real stuff. This is the pain that Jews often feel when confronted by Christianity. Christians think of their religion as nothing but goodness, and think of themselves as spreading the gospel of love. But they hurt the hell out of Jews when they spread these type of stories. Who would want to have stories spread about their ancestors saying that they spit on God, and yelled for his death, and actually asked that his blood be upon them and their children? And then when you know the history, and you know that millions of Jews were attacked and murdered throughout the centuries because of these very stories... it is hard to see them as just someone's beliefs. When someone's beliefs have killed your great grandparents, that is no small matter. It took me many years to get over my anger at these stories. Part of what has helped me get over it is the knowledge that many Christians no longer believe these stories as the literal truth. They still believe in Jesus but they accept that these stories were probably edited by the Romans, and in any case, are not "the point". The point is love, and on that I can agree.
Wow! I'm sure I said too much. But I guess I'm glad that I finally got to tell that story. I had forgotten it, but I guess the music opened up that part of my brain, and the Passion of Minsky came spilling out.
Now, believe it or not, I'm going to listen to the rest of Bach's Passion...but I don't think I will be reading the translation this time!
| Good Night
Well, this is the guestbook at its finest. An cordial exchange of controversial ideas. Contrast this with that nut who was insulting me on my Youtube page. But I enjoyed him in a way. He was so over the top that it was funny.
As for Matthew...well...obviously many Jews are not too happy about his depictions of our ancestors. Indeed, from the historical evidence of the time it appears that Pilate was a ruthless dictator and it is extremely unlikely that he would give a damn about a Jew, especially one like Jesus who was a threat to Roman rule. On the other hand, the Pharises were an extremely enlightened group of people. Anyone who studies the Talmud, which is a compilation of their words, will see that the New Testament portrayal is completely false. In fact, in the Talmud it is said that a Sannhedrin (Israeli Supreme Court) that executed even one man every 70 years was considered a "bloody court". So the very idea that the Pharises were out in the street calling for Jesus' blood strikes many Jews as the height of anti-Semitism. (Of course, some rabbis argue that Jesus did deserve the death penalty according to Torah law because he said he was God, which would be blasphemy of the highest order.)
This is perhaps the place where the two religions most collide with each other. A literalist Christian would say that the New Testament is the "Word of God" and therefore its portrayal of the Jews must be true. A historian would point out that the Romans, when they made Christianity the state religion, destroyed many alternative gospels, and probably rewrote the New Testament to fit their political agenda (Council of Nicea). There have been alternative gospels that have surfaced recently including the Gnostic Gospels. In one there is the same story as Matthew's but in this case Pilate is calling for Jesus' blood, and the Pharises say, "His blood will be on your hands"! This to me seems much more accurate historically, and also from what I know about the Pharises.
These days, many Christians are moving beyond the traditional interpretations. There are many who still believe in Jesus, but also concede that the New Testament probably contains political bias and even anti-Semitism. They would argue that one's faith can be stronger than any book can contain.
Well Good Friday is over... and it looks like everyone else is asleep. So now it is time to say Good Night.
| Looks like I almost missed something
Alright, here's a post replying to both Von Cello and LN Cello"
LN Cello: "Just back home from accompanying (with cello bass organ & harpsichord) a choir in a (not "the") Matthew Passion - talking about food for thought! It's way too late here now, but you know, there's some lines in the text, that always makes me wonder: how was this exactly translated? And why did this idea come up that "the" Jews (as in, generalisation) killed Jesus? It doesn't say so - is the text interpretated wrong, or is this prejudice from the reader? Or also plain antisemitism"?
I would venture to guess it is just predjudice that's been passed down through the ages, but I have never said that Jews killed Jesus. They certainly wanted too, but it's also in Matthew that the jews could not crucify Jesus becuase preparations were being made for Passover...had the High priests dispatched Jesus themselves, they would have been unclean and thus unfit to eat the passover supper. So, it was the Jews who pressured Pontius Pilate into giving the order to Have Jesus whipped and then hung on the cross. But in Pilate we see a man who pities Jesus, and takes to heart Jesus' words of the "Kingdom which is not of this world" (AKA Heaven). Pilate is both helpful and hurtful to Jesus. Helpful in the sense that Pilate wishes to set Jesus free from his chains, but hurtful becuase he almost prevents Jesus from "drinking of his Father's cup" (making the ultimate sacrifice on the cross) as it says in Matthew.
"It is the Christian holiday today of Good Friday, so let's talk a bit about Jesus. You know, it is common these days in America to ask, "What would Jesus do?" But I would like to ask, "What would Jesus eat?"
If he had the choice of a perogi or a knish what do you think he would do?
(Hope no one is offended by levity on this solemn day. But hey, Christians joke around on Yom Kippur! It's all in good fun.)"
What? When have I ever made fun of Jewish people on Jewish Holy days? Kidding....I'm sure you were not reffering to me). Catholics actually joke quite a bit during Holy days.
Anyway, WWJE (what would Jesus eat)? hmmm....well, I definately think he would shop at an organic food market and would not indulge in fast food. I don't think he'd eat fish either...he did live near the Sea of Galilee but I don't see Jesus as a fish eater...more like lamb or venison or buffalo....any kind of game. Game is good
(Hey if you think the above was wierd it's cause it is...I'm tired, alright? You flatlanders can't expect anything coherent from me 24/7 you know!
Alright...pleasent dreams....I'll have cellos and bagpipes chanting in my head.
| A smorgasboard of good points
Aaron wrote a bunch of great stuff in his last post:
"After all, what better thing is there to discuss than Israel while having a good mushroom and onion knish with mustard"!
Well, there is talking about all things Irish while noshing on bangers and mash, or a nice, frosty mug of beer....but I don't normally have dinner in the same vicinity as my lap top. What I like about the question posed above is that food can identify us nationally and culturally...yes, food does nourish us but it does, or can, do much more then that.
"I would imagine, for instance, that in Vermont, which is a bastion of "liberal" thinking, that NPR is considered an authority on "All Things" (as in their show, "All Things Considered"). I would bet that Vermonters do not get to hear a pro-Zionist point of view very often. So, some of what has been said here may seem surprising or even disturbing. But that is what communication is all about. It says in the Talmud, "One who does not ask questions does not learn". How true is that? (You see, there I go asking a question!)"
You are correct, Aaron - we don't get a lot of pro-zionist perspective here in Vermont...not that I would say most people aren't open to it, nor are we against it (at least I'm not), but there are some people living in the state who have lived here their whole lives; their hometowns, and the morals, codes, ethics and world-views that come with them are there only frame of refference. They are ignorant, but that does not make them evil, most of them do not have access to travel and experience the rest of the world. I must admit, though, I don't listen to "All Things Considered" all much....I'm more of a "Prarie home Companion" or "Car Talk" guy...not that I don't appreciate current events, it's just that the news is all the same these days...there's nothing new TV, radio, newspapers can tell me.
But anyway, back to Zionist dogma - i must admit I was taken aback a little in the early days of my posting in the guestbook...it was language i had never heard used before on the internet, not to mention in real life. But It's clear you love Israel, your spiritual homeland and that's good. Bob Marley sang about Ethiopia, Rastafarianism's sacred homeland many times while he was still with us. It think it's important to feel connected spiritually to a place that may not be one's physical home, but the collective home of a whole group or race...hey, whatever one can do to try to bring about some unity in this world.
From a Catholic perspective, i don't think we place as much emphasis on Bethlehem as Jews do to Israel or Rastafarians do to Ethiopia. Heaven is a common word in Western pop songs, but it's usually just used as a metaphor for the location some boyfriend's girlfriend fell down from. I belive heaven isn't "up", it's a state that has no location, though God is there. Those who believe in it exist in Heaven once they die to accompany God for eternity. But Heaven is God and God is all around us...i guess God BECOMES Heaven for us when we die. Whew! That's all i got for that section.
"Why does a Jew always answer a question with a question"?
If you think this is a strictly Jewish trait, jeez - just look at Christian philosophers....my mother could go into more depth on Christian philosophers because she's going for her Masters in Theology...needless to say she's the reader in the family.
All right, I think I've covered everything...I'm now going to zone out on bagpipes before bed. 'Night!
I don't think she'd find the guestbook
| Good Friday
| Good Friday
It is the Christian holiday today of Good Friday, so let's talk a bit about Jesus. You know, it is common these days in America to ask, "What would Jesus do?" But I would like to ask, "What would Jesus eat?"
If he had the choice of a perogi or a knish what do you think he would do?
(Hope no one is offended by levity on this solemn day. But hey, Christians joke around on Yom Kippur! It's all in good fun.)
| Knish Knosh
Knish Knosh is the name of a Knish store in Forest Hills where I lived for a while. It is a play on the word nosh, which is Yiddish for snack. They put a "K" in front of it to make it match Knish. Pretty clever, no?
A knish is like a perogi on acid. First of all it is about 3 or 4 times the size. It also has a thick crust that is probably baked and fried. The potato inside probably has a bit of onion or something in it because it has more taste than a perogi. The crust is also kind of flakey. Sometimes they put mushrooms, spinach, kasha, and other things in it...which they pretty much do with perogis too. In NYC they sell knishes on the street along with hot dogs. There are square ones and round ones. They taste different. In Canarsie, where I grew up, there was a guy who only sold knishes in the street. His name was "Ruby the Knishman"! He was perhaps the most famous person in southern Brooklyn...at least famous among Brooklynites. Someone put up a tribute site to him that you can find on the web.
I just want to state for the record that it is fine for people to question Israel or even attack Israel on this guestbook. This is a post of freedom on the internet. Anyone can talk about anything. The only thing I do not allow is threats against individuals. Not that anyone here would attack Israel, but I know people hear all kinds of stuff and it is good for folks to be able to air what they hear and discuss things. After all, what better thing is there to discuss than Israel while having a good mushroom and onion knish with mustard!
I would imagine, for instance, that in Vermont, which is a bastion of "liberal" thinking, that NPR is considered an authority on "All Things" (as in their show, "All Things Considered"). I would bet that Vermonters do not get to hear a pro-Zionist point of view very often. So, some of what has been said here may seem surprising or even disturbing. But that is what communication is all about. It says in the Talmud, "One who does not ask questions does not learn". How true is that? (You see, there I go asking a question!)
Why does a Jew always answer a question with a question?