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Von Cello 

Post No. 2407
01/11/2009 01:15 PM
  
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Don't put words in my mouth

I never said we have the God given right! (I hate when people jump to conclusions rather than listen to what I actually say.)

So in your view does anyone anywhere have the "right" to any piece of property? Or is it all "dog eat dog" and "might makes right"?
canarsie 

Post No. 2406
01/11/2009 12:46 PM
  
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you don listen ..I never said we have any freakn right to be in israel altho thats the official line from israel..we are there with no right as in this world its dog eat dog and jews must survive as everyone else..
no godgiven,,not law givenn the word operative here in TAKEN..we took it and we will take more if attacked..we have no right more than others to life to land to anything...you say we have a right givn by god others say by laww.i say by might..
Von Cello 

Post No. 2405
01/11/2009 12:11 PM
  
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Cardinal Renato Martino

I shouldn't bring up the Inquisition but how dare a senior aide to the Pope bring up Holocaust imagery to describe a situation where Jews are defending themselves from those who would like to finish Hitler's work! Hamas says openly that they want to destroy Israel. They have also said that Jews around the world should be killed. They believe that God Himself wants the Jews destroyed. That puts them in the camp of Hitler. Now this hateful man brings up Holocaust imagery to describe what the Jews are doing to defend against 8 years of rocket attacks from these people?

I am not saying that I support the way Israel has handled the Gaza now or ever. But look at what other countries do for much less. Look what the U.S. did to Iraq and Afghanistan! If this is a concentration camp, what was Iraq during those early days of "Shock and Awe" ... an extermination oven?

What did the Pope do during the Holocaust when Jews were actually in concentration camps? Why didn't he speak out then? Where was Renato Martino back then? Where was his counterpart?

Yeah, its always easy to pick on the Jews. Sure, there's only 14 million of them. But the Nazis ... oh no, they were 60 million strong, and located in the Pope's backyard. So I guess might makes right. You speak out against the little guy defending himself, and you shut your mouth when the big guy rounds people up and throws them into ovens! But God forbid the little guy should try to use some might of his own. Oh no, then you jump on him, kick him, and accuse him of the atrocities of the big guy who tried to wipe him out!

This Cardinal is so disgusting words can't convey it. We cannot, nor should we, blame all Catholics for the sickness expressed by this one man, but if I were a Catholic, I would be calling for his resignation. This man is supposedly a holy man?

I wonder how he would react if someone bombed the Vatican with 10,000 bombs over 8 years. Let's see his reaction as the Michaelangelo statues get blown to bits, as the Sistine Chapel comes crashing in! Let's see his reaction when he and the Pope have to run to a bomb shelter several times a day, year after year!

Disgracia!!
Von Cello 

Post No. 2404
01/11/2009 11:08 AM
  
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From the people who brought us the Spanish Inquisition...

Pope's aide sparks fury in Israel by comparing Gaza to concentration camp
Published Date: 09 January 2009

A SENIOR aide to the Pope has sparked a serious diplomatic row between the Vatican and Tel Aviv by describing Gaza as "a big concentration camp".
In an interview with Italian media on Wednesday, Cardinal Renato Martino, president of the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace, said "Defenceless populations are always the ones who pay. Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp."

A spokesman for Israel's foreign ministry said: "We are astounded to hear from a spiritual dignitary words that are so far removed from truth and dignity.

"The vocabulary of Hamas propaganda, coming from a member of the College of Cardinals, is a shocking and disappointing phenomenon."

Jewish leaders in Germany also condemned Cardinal Martino. "He is either trying to nefariously disseminate anti-Israeli propaganda or he doesn't have the faintest clue about the murderous conditions inside a concentration camp," Stephan Kramer, general secretary of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, told a newspaper.

Tension has been simmering between the Vatican and Israel since Pope Benedict's decision last October to press ahead with the canonisation of the wartime pontiff Pius XII. Israel has questioned the role Pius played during the Second World War and claimed he did not do enough to speak out against the Holocaust.
--------------------------------------
Von Cello 

Post No. 2403
01/11/2009 10:53 AM
  
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Country Cousins

So to you being Jewish is being part of a nation, like being Italian. Okay. But there is one problem, no one is shooting rockets into Italy day after day, No one is telling the Italians that they are on their land. There is not a billion people out there who have a religion that states that Italy is actually theirs and that it is their duty to kill the Italians if they refuse to move.

If Israel is nothing more than a country of a national group, on what basis do you claim that the Jews have more of a right to be their than the Muslims?

(Again, I am not making points, I'm asking questions.)
canarsie 

Post No. 2402
01/11/2009 03:05 AM
  
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my bagel your book

wen catholics gave up believing in the new religion lutheran many catholics sais wat u now say ..we jews who dont believe in DOG are losing their religion.our ID but theses catholics formed a NEW religion called lutheran..maybe we jews like me need a new word like israeli american or hebrew people or jew and you call yourself jewISH..its not really a new religion more of a race like blacks or italians .i agree that the WORD jew jewish is not defined well anywhere.
it started with good old napoleaon he told the french jews to define themselves and we couldnt..
i could throw it back at you and say ..all the religion for 2000 yrs was the glue that held us together without a land and now that we have that land.????
maybe the religion is optional like italian catholic..some still say today that any italian who also doesnt practice catholic isnt really italian.ITS part of their culture.. italian who doesnt believe in god is like the pizza to my bagel..
go>>>>
Von Cello 

Post No. 2401
01/10/2009 11:44 PM
  
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A house built on bagels and lox

As for Steve ... his attitudes are not uncommon among some of the Jews I know. They reject the religion yet are strong defenders of the country. Others reject the religion but strongly embrace the culture. But I'll never forget a poster I saw in an Orthodox Yeshiva in Israel. It had a black background and a giant picture of a bagel with cream cheese, and under it it said, "Is this what 3,000 years of Judaism has come to?"

I don't think Steve realizes that Judaism without the Torah is an empty shell. I used to say that people like him have one foot out the door. He lost his religion, but still has the culture because he grew up with it. But what about his kids? Will they keep Judaism alive? And how about their kids?

Statistics say that they will not. The fastest growing segment of the Jews is the Orthodox. They have many kids and almost all of them pass Judaism on. The reformist sects have intermarriage rates around 50%. Steve is himself married to a Catholic. None of his kids are considered Jewish by Jewish law. There is no shame in this, but it is a case in point. At this point his kids would have to do an Orthodox conversion to even be considered Jews by the Orthodox, even though the Reform allows patralineal descent.

If the Torah is really just another book, and if its prophecies really are just a bunch of coincidences, then there really is no "legal" bases for the Jewish right to exist. Steve brings up the moral issue. Yes, the Jews were persecuted all over the world for millennia, therefore, they "deserve" a homeland. And since they came originally from Israel, and since there always were at least some Jews there for thousands of years, why shouldn't they be allowed to have a tiny sliver of land? But sympathy only gets you so far. In most courts you need the law on your side. And the Torah is tantamount to a deed.

If I thought that the Torah was what Steve thinks it is, basically bull crap, then I don't know if I would support Israel. At that point I might say that the Jews should just hang it up and assimilate into other cultures. Even if we are a great nation and have a great history, if so many people hate us and want to kill us, why deal with it?

One could argue that, in a way, Steve has already hung it up. He just can't give up those final few threads that he holds onto, namely supporting Israel and some of the Jewish culture. But he has laid the foundation for his kids to leave without the same regrets. But in my case, I am honestly amazed and impressed with the Bible and far from thinking that there is anything else out there like it. So I see the value in preserving, not just the physical land of Israel and the bagels and the klezmer music, but the foundation of it all, the Torah. For without a rock solid foundation, a house will surely fall eventually. But the Jewish house has withstood every storm and hopefully will continue.
Von Cello 

Post No. 2400
01/10/2009 11:23 PM
  
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Methinks they protest too much

LN, welcome back!

When I see all these people protesting against Israel, all I can say is I hope one day a bomb lands on their house! Then they'll understand why Israel is defending itself.

Where were these people the past few years when 10,000 bombs were shot into Israel from Gaza?

Of course, I was against the pullout of Gaza. I don't know who's side the leaders of Israel are on sometimes. It was inevitable that they would have to go in this way. So part of me is disgusted at the whole thing.

But the hatred that I see on TV aimed at Israel from all these countries is really striking. The only thing that gives me some comfort is that the Torah predicted that "the nations" would be against Israel and the Jews until the messiah comes, so on one level, you gotta love the hate!

LN_Cello 

Post No. 2399
01/10/2009 08:53 PM
  
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From Gaza back to the word of God --->

Creation vs evolution, or is the Torah and Tenach true, by a US evangelist:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6814048597272982882

Got linked here thru a site where I was reading up about a (cancelled) pro-Israel demo organised (by non-Jews) in Amsterdam that was - eh - discouraged / advised against by the police: it might evoke a dangerous situation .. pff - sissies, as if we ARE already under shariah, now I'm not a fan of demonstrations in general, and I know they are often abused by people who have a bad agenda - anarchists and the like, who end up demolishing cars/stores/shops (see Antwerp - Belgium pro-Hamas demo that almost got out of control) but this is bad bad reasoning.

Anyway, I'm checking out these vid's and find it mighty interesting! And it neatly brought me back from Gaza to the topic you guys were discussing - is the bible true? It's way way late here and I'm still watching.
LN_Cello 

Post No. 2398
01/10/2009 04:17 PM
  
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Now they are talking!

Whaw, being off line most of last weeks I have missed the possibly longest and to me, certainly the most important debate ever since ending up here! Even interrupted it halfway without having read all previous posts.

Yes, I do recall that book "Evidence that demands a verdict", I read it while in high school and even remember the writer's name, Josh McDowell. He set out to disprove the belief in the bible of a christian friend of his - and ended up losing his own atheist - um, atheist faith or how to call that. Steve, what can I say, if you are really after the truth, why don't you start a similar journey? In fact, note to self, NY's resolution: I'm gonna study again myself - I have become far too easygoing about reading the Bible . There, I said it!

Now to the world's "hot potatoe" Gaza - here's a site http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened that opens with a good video for starters (who are on MSM junk diet only), admitted, it's not short, so some people might quit watching, but it has good data and the disturbing pictures we hardly see.

And here's one of the many blogs of Israeli people with close connections to the current war: http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.com/
Von Cello 

Post No. 2397
01/10/2009 01:55 PM
  
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Give me security or give me death

So, basically you seem to be saying that you support Israel NOT because you are a Jew, but because it is a matter of survival. If there was no Israel, you contend, the Jews would have all been wiped out by now.

But do you really think the Jews in the United States and in Spain, for instance, would have all been killed after WWII ended? Are you saying that these governments would have rounded them up, after defeating Hitler, and killed them all?

(BTW, don't take this personally. I'm just trying to get you to really look at your beliefs and express them clearly. A lot of people who might be reading this might not understand exactly where you are coming from.)
canarsie 

Post No. 2396
01/10/2009 01:41 PM
  
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thats wat u did in never trying aliya ..i tried it to put my money where my mouth is. I failed at aliya but itried..even tho we are outnumbered its to me all practical.no divinity. jews need a homeland .we need protaction .i dont live there, itried nad if ihadnt id be rreally sad cause any jew born after israels birth must give it a try ,,no passin the buck. wen you see a real need for csomething in practical terms you g othere and do it.if u see it as devine,you dont go there but u support it. to me israel is why we are here today.withuot it wed be pushin up the daisies..do u see israel as a real neeed or as a divine thing..??
Von Cello 

Post No. 2395
01/10/2009 01:34 PM
  
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My people right or wrong?

The plot thickens...

Are you saying you support Israel because you are a Jew? Then if you were a Muslim would you support the Palestinians?

And if it is all a matter of "my people right or wrong" then there are many, many more Muslims, so how about "majority rules"? The Jews are so outnumbered, isn't there a good argument that they can never win, so it is better for the world if they just packed up and left that region altogether?
canarsie 

Post No. 2394
01/10/2009 12:46 PM
  
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rights? i never said its jews right did I? its our obligation to have a homeland a base as all others have..and we need it as well for practical reasons nazis catholics antisemitism.... no rights here just jew incorporated...
no book needed by me..in fact if the book said jews out arabs in since im not religious id still be pro jew in israel
even if science proved god to be false id still be a jew and pro israel and you???
Von Cello 

Post No. 2393
01/10/2009 12:17 PM
  
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Turning the Tables

Let me ask you some questions now.

Why are you so supportive of Israel? If you don't believe the Torah is any more valid than any other book, then how can you justify the right of the Jews to be in Israel to begin with? And why side with them over the Palestinians? Why not remain impartial?
canarsie 

Post No. 2392
01/10/2009 10:07 AM
  
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http://www.helpuswin.org

helpuswin.org needs voncello ideas to respond to anti israel lies
how about writing the first ever song to pupport israel in gaza to win hearts
Von Cello 

Post No. 2391
01/09/2009 04:33 PM
  
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Minsky Humor!

A small town in Poland had only one cow. One day it stopped giving milk. The worried townspeople did some research, and discovered they could obtain a cow from Moscow for 2000 rubles, or one from Minsk for only 1000 rubles. So, naturally, they got the cow from Minsk.

It was a great cow, had a wonderful disposition, and produced lots of milk and lots of cream. Everybody loved it dearly. soon the people decided they would mate the cow in the hope of having more cows like it. Then, they thoght, they'd never have to worry about their milk supply again.

They got a bull, and led the cow and the bull into the pasture.When the bull came in from the right to mount the cow, the cow moved to the left. When the bull moved in from the left, the cow moved to the right. This went on all day long. Finally, in desperation, the townspeople decided to ask their wise old rabbi what to do. They explained the problem, "Rabbi, we've tried all day to mate our cow, but aren't getting anyhere! When the bull moves in from the right,the cow moves to the left. When the bull moves in from the left, the cow moves to the right. Please tell us how we can get them to mate?" The Rabbi pondered for a moment then asked, "Did you happen to buy this cow from Minsk?" "Rabbi!" they replied as one, "You are so wise! We never told you we bought the cow from Minsk. How on earth could you know that?" The Rabbi replied sadly, "My wife is from Minsk."

Von Cello 

Post No. 2390
01/09/2009 01:40 PM
  
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You're paying attention

In the book called Tom Sawyer, someone named Huckleberry Finn says something.

In a book called the Bible someone named God says something.

If you watch my languge closely you'll see that I don't say "God said", I say things like "In the Torah God said".

Get it?

What do you say about the prophecy about the small remnant?
canarsie 

Post No. 2389
01/09/2009 12:04 PM
  
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o godiva

aaron says..God says in the Torah that during the exile..
so now the torah was written by a guy named god.. how do you know that?
u assume that.
i say a guy named dave wrote or two guys..
before you said that the book might be written by anyone and i was wrong to put words in your mouth about a god but now you say the above..so which is it>??
Von Cello 

Post No. 2388
01/09/2009 11:19 AM
  
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Don't you get it?

Canarsie: youre amazed that we didnt grow?
we were killed by nazis spanish catholic etc so we couldnt grow. thats not amazing thats crap..


Don't you get it? That's the whole point! In order for the Jews to remain small there had to be enemies who would keep killing the Jews! God says in the Torah that during the exile the Jews would be constantly under attack and suffer, but He says that He will never let them suffer so much that they will disappear. He gurantees them that they will live thorugh all time periods and will live to see the coming of the messiah!

This is totally amazing. How could the author of the Torah know that the Jews would not only be under constant attack, but that would survive! If the attacks stopped the Torah would have been wrong. But they never did, and they still go on! Also if the attacks worked and the Jews were killed off the Torah would have also been wrong. But the Jews survived the Inquisition and the Holocaust!

Don't you think Hitler thought he would win? He had all that might and power. But his enemy was the Lord of the Universe, according to the Torah, and "Many designs are in the heart of man, but the word of the Lord will stand forever!"

So far the track record is astonishing. Hitler is gone, but the word of the Lord is still here, and the Jews are still here.

many many breleve jeses to be the fullfillment of that book,, those who dont think he didnt meet the requirements of the book..
but maybe he did and jews are disbelievers....


Stop saying "maybe" this and "maybe" that. Read the Jewish Bible and read the Christian Bible. Study with people who really know about these things, and then come to your own conclusion. There are no "maybe's", it is clear as a bell if you spend the time to really look into it.

And again, if many people believe differently than the Jews, this only proves yet again that the Torah was correct when it said only a small remnant would remain! If the whole world started to believe in the Torah, then the Torah would be wrong!

It's so amazing!!!
canarsie 

Post No. 2387
01/09/2009 10:11 AM
  
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youre amazed that we didnt grow?
we were killed by nazis spanish catholic etc so we couldnt grow. thats not amazing thats crap..

many many breleve jeses to be the fullfillment of that book,, those who dont think he didnt meet the requirements of the book..
but maybe he did and jews are disbelievers....
Von Cello 

Post No. 2386
01/09/2009 08:55 AM
  
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The Small Remnant

Actually the Bible talks many times about how a small remnant will remain at the end of time of true beievers. Some Christians make the claim that their group is the small remnant. The Jehovah's Witnesses also make this claim. But they have no proof that God changed His mind and broke His covenant with the Jews. To believe these relgions you have to believe that God lied to the Jews. And then what kind of God would He be? So the Jews still say that they are the small remnant. But the Jews believe that heaven is open to all people, not just the Jews. Yet these other groups say only they will get into heaven.

This is another amazing prophecy. The Jews are about as old as the Indians and the Chinese. There are around a billion people of those groups! Yet there are still only about 14 million Jews! Isn't that amazing? How could a people survive for thousands of years and not grow? This has not happened to any other nation. Yet, here again, the Torah makes a prophecy that had a 0% chance of coming true. It did not come true with the Indians or the Chinese. It did not come true with ANY other group. The ONLY group it came true for were the Jews and that is the ONLY group about which the Torah predicted it would come true!
Von Cello 

Post No. 2385
01/09/2009 07:54 AM
  
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Job Interview

Canarsie: you say jesus did not fill the bibles requirements yet he got the job..

No, he was not hired by the Jewish people. He actually got hired by a few renegade Jews and the Romans. So, he got "a" job, but he didn't get the job he really wanted. But then, again, who knows who he really was or what he really did, or even if he really existed. There is no proof of any of it.

Canarsie: but i think this book doesnt fill the requirements that most today people have set..what are theses requirements that most people have today for this book to be accepted?
maybe this book and jesus suufer the same thing.unbelievability by most not all people..this term requirement is at the center.. we each have an inate setup of requirements..


The Bible says that the Jews would remain a small people. It says that most of the world will not accept the message until the end of time when the messiah will come. The Christians tried to short circuit this by saying that the messiah did come, and then they tried to prove it by forcing their message on to people around the world. The Muslims are trying to do the same. But the Jews wait patiently because they still have faith in the message of the Torah. They never bought into the short circuit "new and improved" messages because there is absolutely no proof that they are true. They do not have prophecies of exiles and returns. They provide no proof and say, "You gotta believe!" But the Jews see those as attemtps to mislead people from the truth. The truth never changed.
canarsie 

Post No. 2384
01/09/2009 05:11 AM
  
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the test is standardized or personal??

you say jesus did not fill the bibles requirements yet he got the job..but i think this book doesnt fill the requirements that most today people have set..what are theses requirements that most people have today for this book to be accepted?
maybe this book and jesus suufer the same thing.unbelievability by most not all people..this term requirement is at the center.. we each have an inate setup of requirements..
Von Cello 

Post No. 2383
01/08/2009 10:06 PM
  
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Honesty, it's such a lonely word...

Canarsie: maybe like me its unimaginable for a book to predict the future,, even if we see it we dont believe it..

That is an honest statement! Even though you see the prophecies you still can't believe your own eyes. It is just "unimaginable" to you that a book could predict the future.

But I don't see why this is so hard to understand. Did you ever hear of ESP? Extra Sensory Perception is a branch of science that postulates that there may be things that can be sensed beyond what is "normal".

Science is also looking into the very real possibility that there are alternate universes and possibly ways to get from one to another. They are considering that the past and the future may all exist simultaneously, and time travel may actually be possible. So, even without believing God wrote the Torah, you should still allow yourself to believe what you are seeing. Maybe a time traveller wrote the predictions? Maybe an advanced being from another universe wrote it? If you have checked out string theory and M theory and Quantum mechanics, you will know about these things.

A lot of people think the Jews in the time of Jesus were these evil, close minded people who refused to see the truth that God Himself was standing there before them. But the Jews of that time were the same as the Jews of today. They studied the Torah and knew the requirements for messiah-ship. Jesus simply didn't meet them. There were other "false messiahs". Look up Sabbatai Tzvi. A lot of Jews thought he was the messiah. The only difference was that when he also didn't meet the requirements, those Jews abandoned him. But the Jews who followed Christ stayed followers and left the Jewish faith.

The Jews have been consistent for millennia. The prophecies are there for all to see. It is very easy to figure out if they have been fulfilled. For example -

1. Jews will be exiled - yes

2. Jews will be returned - yes

3. Jesus brought peace to the world - nope.

I know Christians do not like this, but this is the reality. Jesus did not fulfill the Bible's requirements, at least according to the way Jews interpreted the Bible. So the Christians came up with totally new interpretations. That is their prerogative, but why would the Jews go along with a group of people who changed the rules?

If your baseball team played another team, and you clearly won the game, but then they decided to change the rules and claim they won, would you go along with them?

And that, my friends, is the crux of the problem.

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