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Von Cello 

Post No. 1778
03/31/2008 03:54 PM
  
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Straight Dope

Okay, so Rabbi Singer gave us the more religious and emotional side of this issue. Here is a link that succinctly gives the historical background:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjesuskill.html

This is what it said about Pilate, "Which brings us to Pontius Pilate. The New Testament describes him as prefect over Judea at the time of Jesus' death, and we have outside corroboration for this from several sources. As noted, Tacitus mentions Pilate but only incidentally, saying nothing about his character. However, the major Jewish historians of the period, Josephus and Philo, discuss Pilate at length. Philo, who was Pilate's contemporary, wrote an appeal to the emperor Caligula that included a description of Pilate. Philo wrote of "the briberies, the insults, the robberies, the outrages and wanton injustices, the executions without trial constantly repeated, the endless and supremely grievous cruelty" of Pilate's rule. Pilate was eventually dismissed from office because of complaints of his widespread and injudicious executions. We'll return to Pilate's role later."

This must have been the thing I had heard before...that Pilate was a cruel. murderous dictator. In fact, he was dismissed by Rome, so you can only imagine how brutal he had to be for Rome to remove him, since they ruled with an iron hand anyway.

The author continues, "Why did Pilate order Jesus' execution?

This is pretty straightforward. First, because the high priest recommended it, and second, because the accusation was serious. Jesus was being called king of the Jews, an intolerable political offense. Pilate presumably understood that Jesus was a would-be king with no army, and therefore made no effort to arrest and execute Jesus' followers. He may have regarded Jesus as a religious fanatic, a dangerous extremist, but the title "king" he understood in a political context as a threat to the Roman state. The notion of freedom of speech was still 1700-some years in the future.

The gospels, especially Matthew and John, want Jesus to have been condemned by Jewish mobs, against Pilate's better judgment. These gospels were being written at a time when the early Christians were trying to get along with Rome, so we find a little whitewashing of Roman authorities. Thus, the gospels report that Pilate was worried, that his wife told him to take no action, that he consulted the (mostly Jewish) mob and pleaded on Jesus' behalf, and finally, that he caved in to public pressure and ordered Jesus' execution.

This seems unlikely. The gospels' portrayal of Pilate as wishy-washy, reluctant, and weak-willed is incompatible with the descriptions of him in Josephus and Philo. He had served as prefect of Judea for over a decade; he would not have survived long in that political climate if he were as indecisive as the gospels depict. We can probably best explain this as Christian propaganda a few decades later--an excuse for Pilate's action to reduce tension between the growing Christian movement and Roman authority.

Weddig Fricke says, "Despite all the efforts to make the Jews look primarily responsible and to cast the Roman procurator in the role of an unwitting instrument . . . the biblical accounts make it quite clear that Pontius Pilate pronounced the death sentence . . . which was carried out by his legionnaires."

The most likely story is that Jesus was sent to Pilate by Caiaphas, flogged and briefly interrogated. Then, when Jesus' answers were not completely satisfactory, Pilate had him crucified without a second thought.

SO, WHO KILLED JESUS, ALREADY?

In summary, Jesus was killed because the Roman empire mercilessly put down any possible source of rebellion or riot. The empire's agents included the Roman prefect Pilate who ordered the execution, and the Jewish high priest Caiaphus and his council who initiated the process. Assigning responsibility to an entire group of people, whether the Jews or the Romans, is stereotyping, oversimplifying, and false."

And it gives these books as references:

Crossan, John Dominic, Who Killed Jesus? San Francisco, Harper Press, 1995
Fricke, Weddig, The Court Martial of Jesus, NY, Grove Weinfield Press, 1990
Meier, John P., Rethinking the Historical Jesus, NY, Doubleday, 1994
Sanders, E.P., The Historical Figure of Jesus, England, Penguin Books, 1993
Zeitlin, Solomon, Who Crucified Jesus? NY, Bloch Publishing Company, 1964.
-------------------------

I don't know how many people who come to voncello.com give a hoot about any of this. But I hope I have brought some clarification to some people. This is an issue that has caused tension in the very core of Western culture for millennia. It is about time people faced it and came to terms with it.

Now, where did I put that mp3 of the bagpiper?
Von Cello 

Post No. 1777
03/31/2008 11:29 AM
Email Von Cello Add to your contactlist Von Cello go to the Homepage of Von Cello
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Naimish

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Von Cello 

Post No. 1776
03/31/2008 10:42 AM
  
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Nice...not nice?

Whether or not you are nice I get a kick out of you!

I still may record that tune with a bagpipe. I just have to make some time.

Anybody got any time I can borrow?
eaburke81 

Post No. 1775
03/31/2008 10:22 AM
  
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Von Cello wrote: "His blood will be on your hands." So what I was saying is that Pilate, as I have read about him historically was a mass murdering dictator who killed Jews by the hundreds of thousands. In fact, the Romans killed over a million Jews. The Talmud says the streets were literally running with blood. So what is the difference between that and the Holocaust?

Oh, allright. I see your point. Though a definition of the term "holocaust" might be useful here. Of course the Romans hated the Jews just as much as the Nazis did, and they were just as obsessed with world domination. But I was talking about Pilate and Hitler the individuals, not about pilate and hitler as representations of the mentalities of their respective armies.

And yes....my only frame of refference here is the New Testament so I am a biased "nice christian boy" to say the least.

But switiching to music a little bit...found some intresting stuff on you tube the other day. Type in "homemade instruments" and you'll get some great videos. I've been make a few homemade instruments as well....though my technical skills are lacking a bit. I recently made a small, primitive mouthbow out of a rubber band and a peice from an office computer stand I found in the dumpster. I strike the band with a chopstick and my mouth acts as an apmplifyer - amplyfying not only the single note of the stretched rubber band, but all the overtones that go with it. The mouthbow is the great grandfather of the jaw harp, sometimes called "the stringed jaw harp". It's a pretty cool instrument, and one I officially add to the list of intruments I'd like to hear with the cello...a list I didn't even know I was writing.
Von Cello 

Post No. 1774
03/31/2008 09:56 AM
  
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Pilate the Pirate

Sorry eburke, we must have posted at the same time. I'll see if I can find anything on line about this, but what I was referring to is the historical Pilate, not the character in the New Testament. From what I have read, the New Testament portrait of Pilate is the opposite of what he was really like. In fact, the Gnostic Gospels tell the story the exact opposite way. In that gospel Pilate wants to kill Jesus and the Jews say, "What has he done?" And the Jews say, "His blood will be on your hands." So what I was saying is that Pilate, as I have read about him historically was a mass murdering dictator who killed Jews by the hundreds of thousands. In fact, the Romans killed over a million Jews. The Talmud says the streets were literally running with blood. So what is the difference between that and the Holocaust?

If your only source of information is the New Testament you will see things only the way the authors of that book want you to see them. But there are other sources from the time that paint an much different picture. I know this presents a problem for the "believing" Catholic. But even as a Jew I have had to sometimes open my mind to other views of things. How can we ever all learn to understand each other if we all insist that our limited understandings are the only truth?

Ay, matie...we're headin' towards stormy seas!
Von Cello 

Post No. 1773
03/31/2008 09:44 AM
  
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Now You're Talking

Bingo. That is the problem. I once heard a rabbi say that the Christians say they love us, but it is not a true love. A true love is when you love someone for who they are, not who you want them to be. Now, of course, you can't lump all Christians into one category, but in general, the Christian concept is that you are not a truly good person unless you believe in Jesus, and that means becoming a Christian. So the Christian says, "I love you...if you join our group. If you don't join our group, I will continue to say I love you, but my love will be more like pity, because I believe you are destined for hell."

The Muslim says a similar thing, except that the more militant section says, "I don't love you. In fact, I hate you. But if you join our group then I will love you. But if not, I will kill you." Of course not every Muslim thinks this way either.

But the Jew loves everyone and it has nothing to do with joining the Jewish group. The story of Job is the perfect representation of this. Job is told by God to go to Nineva, NOT to get the people to convert to Judaism, but to REPENT! In other words, God only wants people to be good to each other, no matter what they believe. Yet the Christians and Muslims turned this loving trait and turned it into a negative. They say, "The Jews don't want us to become Jews. They think they are better than us. So we'll show 'em. We'll create religions that say that they have to join with US or they will go to hell."

This creates a real problem and leads to the anti-Semitism we see all over the globe. But the funny thing is, the Torah predicts all of this. So the more the Christians and Muslims tell the Jews they are going to go to hell, the more the Jews believe in the Torah! It's an amazing situation. Hopefully one day, the non-Jews will realize this and stop telling Jews they have to convert or go to hell. But until then, we all pray to our different "gods" and hope for the best.
eaburke81 

Post No. 1772
03/31/2008 09:36 AM
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Allright, here goes something.....

Von Cello Wrote:

"From what we know about Pilate he was like a Saddam Hussein. He was in evil, murdering, dictator with no sympathy at all for a Jew. No more than we would expect from a Hitler. Yet here a perfectly nice Christian boy is taught that NO, Pilate was a good guy! As the poster wrote, "So, it was the Jews who pressured Pontius Pilate into giving the order to Have Jesus whipped and then hung on the cross. But in Pilate we see a man who pities Jesus, and takes to heart Jesus' words of the "Kingdom which is not of this world" (AKA Heaven)." Just replace the word Pilate with Hitler and you will see how sick this is"!

I have not posted on the guestbook for awhile, and yes, Aaron, it was an "eyewhole" when I first logged on. I'm afraid I'm one of those people who finds it easier to comment on less info then to have a million facts hit him all at once. So I will take one point from the long string of ideas we have here and see what I can do whith it.

In your paragraph above you relate Pontias Pilate to Hitler. I don't know whether I am that "nice Christian boy" you were reffering too, but I have never, in all my years of attending mass, heard any other account of Pilate's life besides the Passion naratives. Where did you read that Pilate was a ruthless, anti-semitic dictator becuase I would like to read that book. (Yeah....I know I've never been one for research much, but Pilate is a fascinating character and one of my favorites......this is not to say that I'm "Playing favorites" here. I have no malice towards the Jews in the Passion narratives). But I digress....

To liken Pilate to Hitler is to liken a vegan to a deer hunter....they're two comepletely different chracters. I don't believe Hitler felt any shame for what he was doing, or felt even an ounce of compassion for the victims of the gas chambers, whereas Pilate did show a glimpse of compassion and faith, for a moment, I belive he was the model of what every good political leader should be. Sadly, though, pride got the better of him. This is not to say that I don't believe that Pilate was a ruthless dictator...he probably had Jewish, African, and Asian slaves by the dozens - people from all over the Roman Empire.
Pilate probably was ruthless, yes...money an dpower corrupts; just look at our current president. But to relate a man who (for a moment) believed that the Son of God was who he said he was, to a man who centuries later wanted to obliterate a whole race of people just seems pointless. Pilate was a tragic hero becuase he saw something special in the tormented Christ, yet he did not realize that he would have hurt Jesus and his purpose by releasing him from the bonds of crucifixion. Hitler was a TRAGIC FIGURE because he showed no signs of remorse fopr what he did. I hope I've done my best to differentiate between a tragic hero and a tragic figure here.

Now this "nice Chrisitian boy" is just relieved that he did not misspell "Pilate" as "Pirate"...not even once.
And remember, "International Talk Like A Pirate Day" is every September 19th. So on that day ye best be talkin' like pirates or I'll throw ye all down in the galley with the rest o' the stinkin' bilge rats. Yarrrr, where's me rum? I be dyin o' thirst?
canarsie 

Post No. 1771
03/31/2008 03:59 AM
  
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thin line

i must say that each religion is in a quagmeyerit must teach that it is correct thus the others are wrong yet it mustnt in modern days teach hate or disrespect nor pity the blind

judiaism is great at this. it teaches what it sees as the right way without belittling the other team

it doesnt preach pity them or hit them or convert them

nowadays the muslems are crossing that line and teaching hate
even churches are talking about perfecting the jews as if we were monkeys that need a push a helping hand to evolve to become humans
or cristians

the rabbi in madrid the head rabbi is from ny and we are friends altho im an aethiest with MENORAH AND HES A BELIEVER WITH A MENORAH
we get along altho he cant count on me prayer.
Von Cello 

Post No. 1770
03/30/2008 09:57 PM
  
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From the World Jewish Congress' website

Early contacts in 1945 by WJC's Dr. Kubowitsky at an audience with Pope Pius XII failed to bring about a rectification of the prevailing attitude of the Catholic Church towards the Jews.

Then, in 1965 with the accession of Pope Joh XXIII, Jewish hopes were raised with the Pope's announcement of the deletion from the Good Friday liturgy of the phrase "perfidi Judaei", literally the "unbelieving Jews". He also directed Cardinal Bea, Head of the Secretariat for the Promotion of Christian Unity, to formulate an understanding and harmonious relations between the Roman Catholic Church and the Jews.

After much internal debate, The Declaration on the Revelation of the Church to the Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate) was adopted and then promulgated by the Vatican in October of 1965.

All this was stage-setting for the most exciting progress ever made between the Vatican and Judaism that flowed forth from a meeting between a WJC-lead delegation to the Vatican in 1969 when Pope Paul IV declared, "that opportunities will be developed for the cooperation of the Church with the Jewish People in the service of common human causes".

This was followed in 1970 by the historic first formal meeting between representatives of the Holy See and World Jewry - in which the WJC took a prominent role - and laid the foundation for an ongoing relationship and the setting up of a permanent Catholic-Jewish Liaison Committee.

Three areas presented major difficulties in the newly established Catholic-Jewish relationship:

the Church's attitudes to our common history,
the Church's stance on respect of the Mission to the Jews
the Church's position regarding the State of Israel

In the ensuing years since this historic WJC-initiated opening and dialog established with Paul IV and his liberally-oriented Vatican, the World Jewish Congress has continued to work with subsequent Popes and their staff in our efforts to nurture and enhance this critically important inter-religious connection.

When visiting Auschwitz, Pope John Paul II made important statements on the sufferings of the Jews and the theological misconceptions concerning the Jews.

But of course the hopeful path to mutual respect and reconciliation between Jews and the Church has not always been without its set-backs and troubles. In 1982 WJC's permanent representative to Rome delivered a formal communication to the Vatican expressing the deep shock of organized Jewry at the announcement that Pope John Paul II would receive Yassir Arafat.

Then in 1985 a Vatican-issued note suggesting the correct way to present Jews and Judaism was regarded by the WJC and other leading Jewish organizations as a retreat from earlier Catholic statements. The president of WJC asked all Jewish communities to seek clarification from their local bishops on their interpretation of the Vatican Notes.

The long journey towards respectful and mutual dialogue with the Church continues to this day. Even after the extremely disappointing suspension of the Catholic-Jewish Holocaust Historian's commission due to the Church's reluctance in 2001 to fully open their historical archive of the 20th Century, progress has still been made. In early 2002 European Catholic and Jewish leaders met in Paris as a part of (delayed) follow-up to the Pope's March 2000 visit to the Holy Land. Among other subjects, the participants dealt with the issue of rising anti-Semitism and the attacks on Jewish schools and synagogues in France. European Jewish Congress President Henri Hajdenberg opened the conference by praising the Pope for his recognition of the significance of the Holocaust and of the establishment of the Jewish State, adding "the end of conflict means that Jews and Catholics can at least discuss their differences serenely together".

Echoing this sense of growing common ground the statement of the Catholic participants of the Paris Conference said, "Aware of our historical responsibilities with respect to the Jews, we take this opportunity to firmly re-affirm our unconditional rejection of all anti-Semitism, secular or religious. Christianity must never be used to justify violent words or actions against Jews. We undertake to dispense a just and respectful education about the Jews and about Judaism to future Christian generations, so that the principles of Vatican II may be forever adhered to not only in the hearts, but also in the acts of all. We pray that peace may come to Jerusalem!"
Von Cello 

Post No. 1769
03/30/2008 08:30 PM
  
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Multi faceted issue

If you have not been reading along these past several days, you are in for an eyeful! I would be interested in your take. As I have always said, this guestbook is open to any and all points of view. And I believe that the only way people advance (and society advances) is by discussing things...even things that are generally not discussed. Actually I should say, especially things that are generally not discussed.

We all tend to stay in our safe, self contained zones. If we hear someone say something we don't like, we tend to change the subject, or avoid that person. But how are people to ever be able to understand each other if they refuse to engage. To me a true friend is one who tells you when he disagrees. Or one who makes you question your assumptions. That is, unless he happens to agree with you.

So, who knows? Maybe in our one little corner of the internet we can make some progress.
LN_Cello 

Post No. 1768
03/30/2008 04:36 PM
  
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Ouga!

anyway ive got cake so whos birthday is coming up?

Mine's just been.
Yummie. For the cake that is, not for the birthday, for Mohammed's sake, STOP talking about 50 year stuff, Aaron!

Now I'm gonna catch up reading here. Might need more cake, Steve ...
Von Cello 

Post No. 1767
03/30/2008 04:07 PM
  
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We are both right!

I like that. We are both right. Do you realize how many problems in the world could be solved if people would just say those four words!

I heard a song on the radio today called "The 50 Year Waltz". It was about being 50 years old. How the joints don't work like the used to. How the body parts are starting to wear out. How the trips to the bathroom are more frequent, and how the girls just pass you by. The chorus was something like, "And now all you can do is the 50 year waltz".

It was a nice sunny day. Took a hike with my wife and dog. Then we went to a pet shop. The dog had a blast. Tonight I'll try to get through my never ending pile of paperwork. Whoopie!
canarsie 

Post No. 1766
03/30/2008 12:15 PM
  
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jewey

anyway.i guess we are both right Antisemitism exists in the usa but you live well. it exists in europe but I live well and in israel my cousin in netanya lives well in a new gym he just opened.We are both right..in a strange world

anyway ive got cake so whos birthday is coming up?
niel aaron neil vc anybody??
Von Cello 

Post No. 1765
03/30/2008 11:39 AM
  
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Good and Bad

I think there is good and bad in everything. In Christianity there is good in the concept of a man like Jesus who was willing to die so that others would be saved. In that sense he is like a hero. The hero is willing to give up his life for the benefit of others. Heroes often die while fighting. They are often soldiers or generals. But Jesus is a great example of a hero who dies without fighting. He allows himself to be killed. In modern times I think of Martin Luther King as a similar type of hero. He pretty much knew he was going to get killed. He more or less said so in his speeches. But he did not back down and was willing to die to win freedom for the black people, but also for everyone.

Much to my sorrow, unfortunately whoever wrote the New Testament as it has come down to us today, also included some terribly anti-Semitic portrayals of Jews in that book. In that book the "Chosen people of God" become the "killers of God". It is absolutely horrible.

The Jews as a people are a hero nation. Very much like Jesus, the Jews have been willing to suffer and die in order to spread the message that God is a God of justice and mercy, and ultimately a God of love. Jews stood up to all of the dictators who conquered the world. How much easier it would have been for them if they just converted to Christianity or Islam? How much easier if they abandoned their beliefs in a moral God, and joined the Romans in throwing people to lions and turning the defenseless into slaves. But just like Jesus, the Jews allowed themselves to be crucified, spit upon, battered, and thrown in ovens. Even today, the country of the Jews has allowed thousands of rockets to hit it, while rarely shooting back. The Jews are the Jesus of the world. The Jews are the "suffering servant" of Isaiah.

So, yes, it pains me knowing what is read in the churches week after week and called "the gospel", "the good news". On the one hand we have a religion teaching brotherhood and love, while at the same time it spits on the suffering servant of God, the Jews. And what I am trying to do in my own little way is get Christians to see the paradox. I think many do. But many still don't. Why? Because most people do not want to believe that their religion has anything bad in it. But as I said in the beginning, there is good and bad in everything. If I criticize it is out of love and out of hope for a better world.

Von Cello 

Post No. 1764
03/29/2008 03:59 PM
  
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We Are the World...

I don't know how we got into this discussion. I think it all started when I passed on that joke about an Israeli who was about to be beheaded by an Arab and was given a last request. He asked the Arab to kick him in the ass. I'm not going to repeat the whole joke but the punch line was about how he wanted the American reporters who were also about to be beheaded to see that he got kicked before he killed the Arab so they wouldn't say that the Israeli was the aggressor. Of course, the point of the joke was that the Arab was about to behead him, yet he still needed to prove that he wasn't the aggressor!

Then someone posted saying that he didn't understand the joke. He thought the joke was somehow glorifying violence. And maybe somewhere in my mind I figured that he was seeing it that way because of his Christian upbringing in which the Jews are portrayed as a violent people who screamed, "Crucify him". Then later he posted some comments about how the Jews wanted to kill Jesus and how Pilate was sympathetic. So that just confirmed my suspicion that he was under the spell of the New Testament's anti-Semitic portrayal of Jews. How we got from there to here I don't know. Except that someone else posted asking me if I thought that the Matthew Passion was anti-Semitic, and that opened up a corner of my mind that I had sealed about twenty years ago. And now, both Christian guys have more or less run for cover as we two Jews battle this out. (Which is kind of sad.)

You make a good point that for many Jews today they do not feel anti-Semitism in a constant or violent way. But what about the Jews in Israel. I recently read that there have been something like 5,000 rockets shot into Israeli cities in the past few years from Gaza. You know, I saw a speech today on CSPAN by Newt Gingrich. He mentioned that the Jews in Israel have sustained 60 years of "hysterical" attempts by the Arabs that surround them to exterminate them. And he asked, "What other country has had to suffer like this?" So even though you may have a fine life in Spain, there is still intense hatred of Jews and violence going on against Jews in other places. Even in Europe, there have been many attacks in France and other countries. Add to that all the calls for divestment from certain Christian groups in the U.S. and elsewhere. So even though individual Jews may not be targeted that often today, the Jewish country is under constant attack and threat.

I argue that a lot of the animosity that is targeted against Israel stems from the New Testament portrayal of the Jews. If you are taught as a young child that this group of people were so horrible in so many ways, and then you grow up and hear that the great grandchildren of this group shot a missile into a Palestinian area and killed 20 people...somewhere in the back of your mind you are going to think, "Aha! Just like the New Testament said, they are a violent people", whereas you should be thinking of the Jews as you would think of ANY group of people who had to defend themselves from those who are dedicated to destroying them. So, the reverberations of the New Testament slander against the kind and loving Jewish people still cause constant problems for the Jews to this day.

Now, most Jews do not want to face this, or deal with it. But I am a person who looks between the cracks. I am someone who says, "What can I do that is different from what everyone else is doing? What contribution can I make that no one else is making?" So I chose to play the cello in a different way. And now I am also choosing to tackle a multi generational struggle that continues to haunt the world as it has for millennia. Do I want trouble or "action"? No. I really don't. I want to make people think. And I want to see things get better in the world.

canarsie 

Post No. 1763
03/29/2008 05:40 AM
  
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chip on your shoulder

wen i lived my lil year of unsuccessful aliya in 82 i remember going to talks with jewish leaders. They talked about how we start anew.israel is for jews as italy is for catholics or spain. and everybody can live in the usa..Some guys girls in my class wanted a clash..they wanted to talk about revenge and how they wanted to move to israel to fight for the j people..but there was no fight, Life was a job in banc leumi 9-5 mon.friday and even sunday .Pay tazes and bitch about traffic jams .
they were upset. they wanted drama and confrontation.
the leaders told us the holocaust is over and jews live where they want. As jews today are not religios and religion is folkloric in israel so to is antisemitism...the nonjews dont care anymore about us or their own religion for that matter.
its a perfect world!!
antisemitism lives on and so do jews but its back burner today..
some jews want to confront nonjews about how they hate us but thats passee
youre a successful musician and im a teacher. we live well in goyisha countries.
we can talk of antisemitism as an academic classand it does really exist in reality and in present day church talk
however we two live pretty freakin well so we are the exceptions??? or are we the rule!!!
i think antisemitism exists and youre right in that its taught today in church but it hasnt afected two jews named steve and aaron ..
canarsie 

Post No. 1762
03/29/2008 02:31 AM
  
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live already its over

you remind me of a frend who made aliya with me in 82. He wanted ACTION but in the army he got guard duty..nothin more
you seem to be correct in all you say but the reality is different. youre right in your readings in wat cristiand teach their kids . but u live in the usa and me in spain. We are fine.
so wheres this problem?
we can talk all day that the cristiand taught teach kids to hate us and we killed jesus but the fact is youre a successful musician in protestant USA and im a teacher in catholic spain
neither 1 lives in a bunker in israel

you seem to want to prove THEY HATED US THEU HATE US but the proof would be that they hit us kill us eject us. but we live well very well

the holocaust is proof but thats 60 yrs ago
are you sorry theres no more holocaust?
Von Cello 

Post No. 1761
03/28/2008 07:33 PM
  
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Beautiful Dreamer

canarsie 

Post No. 1760
03/28/2008 03:55 PM
  
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MOST SPANISH NEVER READ WHAT It TEACHES SO IT DIDNT TEACH ANYTHiNG

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT STAil BOOKS THAT NO ONE READS

talk about reality

i kno theres antisemitism but theres anti black anti catholic and anti jemima
Von Cello 

Post No. 1759
03/28/2008 03:10 PM
  
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Close Encounters of the Jewish Kind

I still want an answer, but in the meantime, how about a good laugh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNBo_73qhYk&feature=related

Von Cello 

Post No. 1758
03/28/2008 01:19 PM
  
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Beyond Bull

Okay, let's say there is no anti-Semitism at all in all of Europe. Still, what do you think about what the New Testament teaches about the Jews?
canarsie 

Post No. 1757
03/28/2008 01:08 PM
  
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kill steve

i read in nyt about growing antisemitism in europe especially spain but Im here and its bull

i dont buy bull
Von Cello 

Post No. 1756
03/28/2008 10:35 AM
  
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Teachable moment

I am not saying that I feel under attack all day long. The incident with that guy who grabbed me by the throat was a long time ago. Lately I have had very few experiences of outright anti-Semitism, but I still notice it everywhere in our culture. Sure, the average Christian has no hatred against the average Jew and vice versa. But when you start discussing people's religious beliefs in detail...that's where you start to see the problems.

For instance, I don't want to mention names but someone posted on this guestbook:

"I have never said that Jews killed Jesus. They certainly wanted too, but it's also in Matthew that the jews could not crucify Jesus becuase preparations were being made for Passover...had the High priests dispatched Jesus themselves, they would have been unclean and thus unfit to eat the passover supper. So, it was the Jews who pressured Pontius Pilate into giving the order to Have Jesus whipped and then hung on the cross. But in Pilate we see a man who pities Jesus, and takes to heart Jesus' words of the "Kingdom which is not of this world" (AKA Heaven)."

Now, I know he meant no harm. He is just repeating what he has read in the New Testament. But in my humble opinion, what he was taught is anti-Semitic. Here we have a very nice guy who said that he doesn't think the Jews killed Jesus "but they certainly wanted to". Really? Who says?

I find it very hard to believe the "the Jews" as a group ever wanted to do anything. The first thing anyone learns if they hang out with Jews is that Jews are always debating and disagreeing with each other. Steve, you and I are a perfect example of this! So first of all anyone who says "the Jews" did this or that, or thought this or that, is already engaging in a falsehood. Secondly, the Jewish leadership very rarely carried out capital punishment. As I said before the Talmud teaches that a court that carried out even one execution in 70 years was called a "bloody court". So it is highly unlikely that the Jewish leadership called for the execution of Jesus. And Jews NEVER crucified people. That was a Roman invention. This was the method of their enemy, Rome. So it is also highly unlikely that Jews would have wanted ANYONE crucified.

(For example, do Americans behead people? No! Why not? Because that is not our tradition. That is a Muslim tradition. We may hang people, we may electricute them, inject them with poison, shoot them in a firing squad...but we do not behead! The same would have been true for the Jews in Jesus' time. They did not crucify, nor would they call for a crucifiction any more than American would call for a beheading today. It just does not happen.)

Now the one who posted said "CERTAINLY the Jews wanted to (kill Jesus)". But I would say CERTAINLY they did not, and CERTAINLY they did not want anyone to be crucified. To me this is CERTAINLY anti-Semitism that is passed down to a lot of otherwise good people by the Church.

From what we know about Pilate he was like a Saddam Hussein. He was in evil, murdering, dictator with no sympathy at all for a Jew. No more than we would expect from a Hitler. Yet here a perfectly nice Christian boy is taught that NO, Pilate was a good guy! As the poster wrote, "So, it was the Jews who pressured Pontius Pilate into giving the order to Have Jesus whipped and then hung on the cross. But in Pilate we see a man who pities Jesus, and takes to heart Jesus' words of the "Kingdom which is not of this world" (AKA Heaven)." Just replace the word Pilate with Hitler and you will see how sick this is!

Pilate was a murderer. Pilate was a evil sick killer of innocents. NOT THE JEWS!!!!!!

This is anti-Semitic! This is a fabrication that the Romans concocted and added to the New Testament. This is NOT the word of God. This is a lie that has been passed down among Gentiles for 2,000 years. This lie led to the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, and is behind all the anti-Zionist propaganda that circulates all over the world.

Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but don't I have a right to be offended? Or must I as a Jew never talk about this? Must I just get along in the Christian world like "Canarsie", saying I'm an atheist, or something, and never confront the Christian world about the hate speech that they pass on to their children about my ancestors?

So, yes, no one grabbed my throat and threw me down on a table today. No one did it yesterday either. But someone today told a young child that "the Jews" wanted to kill Jesus today. And someone said that Hitler (Pilate) was a better man than the Jews. "Pilate pittied our Lord. He heard his message. But not the Jews! No, they wanted him dead! They screamed, Crucify him!" This is passed down from father to son, mother to daughter, priest to congregation all over the Western world!

Am I wrong? Was this not taught to a young child somewhere in the world this very day? And all I'm saying is after 2,000 years, enough already!! Leave the Jews alone!! Let the Jews live in peace. Teach the children about how wonderful the Jews are. Teach them about "do unto others as you would have others do unto you". Teach them about "they will turn their swords into plowshares". Teach them about, "the lion will lie down with the lamb". THIS is what Jews brought to the world. NOT "crucify him". THAT is Roman propaganda.

And this NEVER stops. Every day this is passed on by the thousands and maybe millions of churches that teach this as "the Gospel". Yes, this is "the good news". Let's all celebrate how the Jews wanted to kill Christ. Let's celebrate how the lovable Roman governor was better than the lowly Jew. He listened to Jesus. But not the Jew. No, the Jews were blind. And they still are bllind. Hurray, let's spread the good word brothers!

Sorry, again. But this is anti-Semitism. As Frank Zappa once sang:

Take the day and walk around. Watch the Nazis run your town. Then go home and check yourself. You think we're singing about someone else."

The Jews did not kill God. They did not want to kill God. They do not want to kill God. The Jews are a good people. They are a people who have suffered for generations because they believe they have a good message for all humanity. They believe that it is worth accepting all of this hatred, and even the violence, rather than give up on the message of LOVE that is at the core of Judaism. Judaism alone of all the religions says that God loves ALL of His children. And there is a place in heaven for EVERYONE, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever. What determines who goes to heaven is not a belief but your actions. Did you give charity today? Did you pass by someone in need on the street? Did you council someone who is going wrong? Did you say "I love you" to your wife or a friend? Did you teach a child right from wrong? Did you show sympathy to one in pain? Did you take a risk for peace? These are the things that get you into heaven. And even though someone once grabbed me by the throat for saying so, I agree with my mother: It doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you are a good person.
canarsie 

Post No. 1755
03/28/2008 02:43 AM
  
Comments (0)
wadys mean you like me? hey mom...

i gota tell you i agree with israel 100 percent .its under attk and must fight

even preempt attcks on its people
by attacking first to destroy terror tools

but I think there are jews who really face the empty nest syndrome.. the antisemitism exists but they dont face it and they know others face it but they dont. They lik to talk about them hating us and see movies and rattle sabers but they are bored
they look for an event to give drama to their lives...I live in THIS world you talk about the THEM the THEY and i dont face this antijew feeling..I kno its there im not dunb blind but it aint so dramatic

theres probably more anti classical music feeling than antisemitic feeling in the world
canarsie 

Post No. 1754
03/28/2008 02:21 AM
  
Comments (0)
hit me that way i kno u lov me

first Im blonde with blue eyes
and im jewish
second I recall a jewish guy kicking a protestant in the ass just for being a protestant.
they all want to kill us he said after kicking him Im sure that protestant became antisemitic after that

i think you need to live among nonjews to see that most really couldnt care less if youre a jew or not.
in spain very catholic im known as a jew i have a big menora in my classroom..all students kno im jewish but the want ENGLISH CLASSES...

I kno some jewish guys in the states who have a psychdrama in their heads and want a clash of antijew movement so they can be the next dyan or meyer

its gotten boring for them

theres antisemitism and its taught to kids and theres anti cristian also taught. Each side has its stories from the biblee the news the folklore..wach says arent we right to teall our kids this or that but aaron you gotta see that religion and antisemitism is for you a subject on the net
you dont face it. its always the other jew who faces it in another country another city but Im that jew and im not facing it either

we talk about them hating us but we really dont face this hate..we live ok

it exists but some jews need the psychdrama they like to watch movies about hitler and after walk down the street just waiting for an attack...wanting an attack

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