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  Here I drop down in front of the pc after a rehearsal of the Brahms clarinet trio (ah, one of my all time favourite chambre music pieces, by maybe my favourite chambre music composer!)- and yes, this whole exchange of thoughts is too interesting to let pass by. In fact, even after the Brahms reh. we talked about religion, but with two convinced atheists/evolutionists with little or no room for religion as such, it wasn't much of a real "exchange".

You know, that's it! I enjoy the discussions here in the guestbook! I miss those! They remind me of my kibbutz time, second half of '82 and all of 1988 and some, we had those fierce discussions about religion and politics and the big why of the Holocaust and can we occupy the disputed territories and ... We, i.e., any mix that happened to find themselves together of young kibbutznikim, most of them of course in or about to join or just after army, and ulpan students and volunteers from literally all over the globe. The great thing I will always remember is that anything could be discussed and yet we still sat together around the campfire or in someone's room or in the mo'addon. Among us, we had views ranging from one bizarre to the other!
For example, I remember (setting: winter '88, ulpan students together plus me only non-Jew) this Argentinian Jewish ulpan student (his family name ... was the name of one of the most horrible concentration camps in Poland ... shivers) and he said: "For peace with the Palestinians, we should give up the disputed territories, give back East-Jerusalem, in fact, I wouldnot even object if we gave up all of Jerusalem." To this very day I can still see and hear him sitting there saying that! I was flabbergasted, I didnot know where to start objecting to that last bit, and who was I to obejct, I wasnot a even a Jew, so I kept my mouth shut but my eyebrows must have got stuck raised up for 15 minutes! All of Jerusalem, eyze ghutzpah!
Or my Hebrew teacher - she was 80, still spoke 7 languages, she was an extremely open minded person - esp. given her age, and with her experience, 1948, all the following wars, having fought cancer, become a widow, she said we needed to negotiate with Arafat (I'd given up already in '82). I found her courageous. Me, I couldnot even look at his picture in the JPost. She defended her position with arguments of logic. So I, with my limited Hebrew, had to, as well!
But even for her there were limits. My German fellow student-trainee (think referring to '82 Lebanon invasion) once remarked to her that (Israeli) Jews "should know better 'cs they had suffered in the Holocaust themselves". To which she quipped: "as a German you should be the last one to bring that up".

Of course, it wasn't only politics, hey, we weren't activists or so, but back in those times, we - Israeli's and non-Israeli's alike - weren't yet as fed up and tired with discussing the "matzav" as we all are now. But then, given the (first) Lebanon invasion of July '82, the massive protests against it after the Sabra and Shatilla mess up by the christian falangists, the start of the (first) intifada in Dec. 1987, wounded soldiers coming back to the kibbutz on leave, people being stoned on buses while travelling through the Westbank to Jerusalem - all this and religion was foremost on our minds quite often.
Living there, you could simply not afford to NOT have an opinion, and you'd better know 100% why you held the one you held, 'cs you'd be grilled for it left and right so to say. All in respect for each others' opinions and traditions, in some atmosphere of a certain friendship (gosh, none of us had a penny, no cell phones, no tv's, no laptops, no mail, no chat, those were the days, probably that made a difference as well ...).
 
  Author: LN_Cello
Eintrag from 07.02.2009
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